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*askance*

I got hit by a troll last night on my Mormon posts, and I'm sad to say it's the lamest of trolls. But then, I didn't expect anyone to bring their A game, as the church teaches that you should never get into a scriptural debate with anyone. (Seriously.) Um... anyone else see the flaw of that sentence? Also, minor rant regarding "being organic/earth conscious" etc.


I get (and applaud!) the idea of reducing toxins to the earth. I practice that philosophy, myself. No one wants to paralyze birds and kill fish and frogs. Unless you're evil, which clearly you are not. *beams* So you stop buying Ortho products and switch to Jimmy Crack Corn's All Natural Health Inducing Earth Grow Products. (Or similarly named. And packaged in lovely green bags/bottles with pictures of children and flowers and bunnies gamboling under lovely sunshine)

And guess what? You've just polluted the earth. How? Because that stuff came in a bag or bottle or dispenser, which had to be manufactured. Which in turn had to be loaded onto a truck. Which was then driven across the highways, belching smoke into the air. Which was brought into a store that most likely has A/C and electric lights and some kid named Skip that works the backroom that dumps his "Monster Bull Energy Drink" - filled with chemicals - onto the ground by the azaleas. You're still consuming manufactured products.

And organic products are still produced in the same way that "inorganic" products are made: machinery, by-products, packaging.

You're just trading one thing for another. It's not "helping" the earth. It's helping your conscience by making you think you are. (Note: your grass doesn't know that your nitrogen came from a by-product of one thing, or from sheep's urine or from liquefied seaweed. And that seaweed? Big oily boats were on the water pulling that in, and loads of fish were killed as a result. Just thought you should know. You should use a mulching mower and not fertilize your lawn at all, actually.)

If you're one of the few that gets their produce from farmer's markets, if you're one of the few that composts their own kitchen/yard waste, if you're one of the VERY few that composts your old cotton/wool clothes, towels, and sheets (did you know you could? You CAN!) and you use smart environmental practices in your garden (the right plant for the right place, native plants that aren't invasive or have high water/nutrition needs that can't be met in your soil, NO OVER WATERING), if you are one of the few that does these things, then this rant isn't for you.

But if you're buying "organic" because you think you're helping the earth, please note the irony. You're BUYING STUFF. Stuff that was manufactured, packaged, delivered, PRODUCED. Net global production has to come down for any affect on Mother Earth to be measured. Which means we have to stop buying crap.

~inspired by a new slew of "green" commercials for light bulbs, organic gardening products, and that horrible BP commercial where friggin' FLOWERS come out of the car because it's their gas. WTF.

Thanks to everyone that left me a huge pile of HP recs to dive into. YAY!! I'm off to print a chunk of them and lay outside reading. Ahhhhhh. HAPPY SATURDAY! May the sun be shining in your neck of the woods, and may your icy beverage never run dry. Ooh, before I forget: HAPPY BIRTHDAY to julia_here! May your rose bushes prune themselves, sparing your certain death! :D

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( 28 comments — Leave a comment )
harmonyfb
May. 12th, 2007 03:29 pm (UTC)
I found a new line of organic fertilizer (ie, worm castings) that are being sold in re-used 20 oz soda bottles. Yay, recycling! Yay, worms!

Yep, I'm buying stuff (because we don't have a compost pile for a variety of complicated reasons), but as consumerism goes, it's not too bad. 'Specially since we can recycle the container afterward. :)
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 03:37 pm (UTC)
Oooh, worm castings are GREAT. (I can tell you how to raise your own, if you ever wanted to. We've been doing it for four years, now.)

And yeah - I buy stuff, too. I just get weary of snotty people I've encountered that talk about how awesomeorganic they are and how they're helping the earth by buying other stuff. Dude, you're still CONSUMING.

This was not directed at people on my flist that I know do what they can (and Pagans like you that love and respect the Earth to the best of their abilities. :X)
gillo
May. 12th, 2007 03:53 pm (UTC)
I hate and detest BP commercials and have done ever since they ran a series on Brit TV about how much they were investing in research in the same frikkin' month they sacked two thirds of their research staff in their main research centre. (Yes, that included my husband. When we had a one-year-old child. Bitter? Moi?)

I think far too many folks confuse organic food with environmentally sound food. Some foods are both. But if you buy stuff grown in Chile, it may be "organic" but it sure as hell ain't green.

I try to avoid excess packaging, walk or use public transport rather than drive if I can, switch lights off in empty rooms (wish I could train my kids to do that too) and compost where I can, though I wear my old clothes. *g* I also don't kid myself that any of this makes me some kind of saint. But we can all try to reduce our own footprint a tiny bit.
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 04:03 pm (UTC)
Oh my gosh, I LOVE YOU for your comment re: Chilean fruits. (I've made a separate rant on organic fruits, and how they're not regulated, etc. a year ago.) BP! Ugh, their commercials are sickening.

And yeah - I'm a consumer. I buy DVDs, gas, have a ridiculous telivision... But I don't lord it over fellow consumers in a shop that I'm An Earth Savior because I'm buying a box of cereal with a Green Stripe on the top, indicated the Superior Organics Within.

Buying something different is still BUYING SOMETHING. Hahaha.
liz_marcs
May. 12th, 2007 04:26 pm (UTC)
My parents taught me and my brother to shut off the lights when we left the room by charging us 50 cents every time we did it.

Since that took a chunk out of our allowance, we learned pretty fast to do it.

Of course, sticker shock when I got my own apartment just reinforced the deal on shutting of lights when I wasn't in the room. (ha-ha)
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 05:18 pm (UTC)
hahaha, I love your parents! (I'm sure I would have hated that when I was a kid, though.)
justhuman
May. 12th, 2007 03:59 pm (UTC)
I know of what you speak on the organic rant. My personal pet peeve is the "hybird" SUVs that still get less gas mileage than the average small all-combustion car. I'm also of a mind that buying the local non-organic tomatoes at the farmer's stand is better than getting the organic ones, shipped from California 3 days ago after being picked early to prevent rotting.

On the other hand, I think there is value to some of the products that are coming more into the forefront. If you're going to use light bulbs anyway, they might as well be compact fluorescents instead of incandescents.

It's all a trade off in the end. Doing right by one issue usually aggravates another. My personal theory is that we need to be all aware of the impact, negative and positive, our choices have. That or we need to go off the grid and become hunter-gatherers again.
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 04:06 pm (UTC)
I am in COMPLETE AGREEMENT with you on those tomatoes. COMPLETE. (I've talked about how "organic" food is produced in an earlier rant, btw.)

And we spent a weekend replacing our lightbulbs with the compact lightbulbs, too. But keep in mind that the same companies that pollute the streams, etc. with the by-products produced from the manufacturing of the old lightbulbs are just making new lightbulbs that reduce electricity waste in our houses. They still have by-products from their manufacture to deal with.

It's about how the less we consume means the less that's PRODUCED, and that's where the real benefit will come from.

Oooh, I like the idea of going off the grid and becoming hunter/gatherers. (Except for those times I want to watch my Angel DVDs, ahaha. Then I want juicy juice runnin' mah machine.) Why yes I am a hypocrite. *g* (I just admit it.)
(Deleted comment)
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 05:19 pm (UTC)
HAHAHA, RIGHT! The great thing about the caffeine angle is how that's just COMMON KNOWLEDGE. FOr cripe's sake, the Mormon Comedian (ugh) John Bytheway has a SONG about no-caffeine based on a Mormon Anthem, "CHoose the Right." (Choose the right/when a choice is placed before you vs. Choose the Sprite/When a Coke is placed before you)
viciouswishes
May. 12th, 2007 04:28 pm (UTC)
I saw those commercials and had the very same reaction.

I was very please to be in a meeting this week where the company I work for was talking about how to make our packaging more sustainable. (Even if I'm sure transportation is still bad.)
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 05:20 pm (UTC)
Right! I mean, if stuff is still being packaged in non-recyclable plastic, how is that helping? How awesome is your company for making the attempt?
liz_marcs
May. 12th, 2007 04:32 pm (UTC)
Heeee on the troll. That's some pretty weak shit right there, yo! Someone should've told the dude/dudette that one does not fuck with an ex-Mormon who knows their family history backwards and forwards because they will be pawned.

Anyway, I'm totally with you on the whole "buy local produce if you really mean it about eating 'green' foods." The marketing for organic produce drives me batshit insane because my beef is that almost none of it is local to me, the prices are higher (which puts it out of the reach of more people than you'd think), and the produce goes bad a little bit quicker.

You might as well go down to the local grocery and buy the fruits and veggies because buying organic seems to be (IMHO) a net zero gain in buying the regular fruits and veggies.

In either case, if you're like me and live in a northern climate, growing season is only so many months. Luckily, I live in an area where farmer's markets sprout like mushrooms between May and September. Not a lot of months, it's true, but at least it's something. I'm only sad that I can't afford to buy a farm share and get year-round fruits and veggies ($600 to $800 up front in December, yikes!)
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 05:26 pm (UTC)
I've made a post about "organics" here, if you're interested.

And I have no problem with local farms using "chemicals" (I say that in quotes because EVERYTHING is a chemical. Like, H2O, for example) to have higher production. They are so heavily regulated, it's not even funny. Plus, they can't use, say, a miticide within a certain # of days before harvest, which means that you aren't getting the miticide in your mouth when you bite it. Which is what, I think, the real reason for people going organic is: they don't want to ingest it.

The big producers (like ConAgra) are the ones that need to adopt crop-rotation, specie-variety, etc. to reduce the amount of chemicals that can have a negative affect on the local flora/fauna.

One of my DREAMS is to have a small farm to grow my own food. I grow a lot of it here, but I want more fruits/veggies to SHARE. (And can for the winter.)
ebonypsyche
May. 12th, 2007 05:50 pm (UTC)
I love farmer's markets. *pout* I wish I had the time to go more.

And you see that's what I don't get people are pumping in *organic* stuff as long as it reflects well on them without proper dedication to see it through. Don't go on to me about helping the enviroment while drinkng starbucks (but it's vanilla chai so it's "ok") talking about the vegan place you bought your lunch at and expect me to praise you. I won't. It's kinda silly but mostly sad because you don't get it. I'm not saying that I'm much better because honestly my eating/living habits suck but I know it and I'm not trying to pass as something else.

yep I tend to rant- shh!
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 05:55 pm (UTC)
Right, I'm not saying *I'M* better than anyone, just more questioning people who *DO* think they're really making a difference by just buying something *else.*

And heeeee, I tend to rant lately, too, so you're in good company. *g*
floweringjudas
May. 12th, 2007 06:35 pm (UTC)
...Wonder if they'll talk about how they tried to Reason With the Anti's at next month's Fast & Testimony meeting.
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 06:43 pm (UTC)
Ahahahaha. Wasn't that the most STELLAR ARGUMENT EVER? Here I am, refuted. :D

Oh man, I've been trying to remember Firesides of Dubious Intent and remembered the guy that was electrocuted at a golf course and had third degree burns all over EXCEPT WHERE HIS GARMENTS WERE. *cough* He only had second degree burns, there. (Probably because the nylon fabric melded with his skin. They did say he was burned on 90% of his body, and he's lucky to be alive. So.... how much do garments cover? AHEM. Logic will foil them!)
floweringjudas
May. 12th, 2007 06:59 pm (UTC)
For srs. It's really too bad they have the facts on their side. XD

I refused to go to a lot of Firesides (also we didn't have many, VA being the Mission Field and all). However, I do remember one where the adults set up a fuckin' obstacle course and then BLINDFOLDED US ALL and the adults "talked us through it." Except the bishop's wife who was talking me through it failed to mention how there was a row of chairs I should've crawled UNDER instead of climbing up on top and half-killing myself getting over them.

OH OH AND THE SISTER MISSIONARIES WHO WERE PROTECTED BY THE THREE NEPHITES.
(Deleted comment)
harmonyfb
May. 12th, 2007 10:39 pm (UTC)
We have U-Pick-Em farms that our family hits every year - man, there's nothing better than strawberries fresh off the plant. :)
stoney321
May. 12th, 2007 11:02 pm (UTC)
MAN ALIVE is there nothing better than fresh corn?!? I miss my dad's family's farm up in Utah for the sweet corn. Holy smokes, the fresh raspberries and strawberries... Mmmmm. How people can not like fresh fruits and veggies is beyond me.

I've got some tomatoes almost ready to go, and loads of sweet peas I've been picking off the plant. Mmmmm, heaven! (And I can see that about New England. Lots of small, but productive farms.)

I'm boggled by the troll, to be honest. o_0
midnightsjane
May. 13th, 2007 04:29 am (UTC)
Ummm. I do agree with you that buying stuff (green or not) adds to the pollution load; it stands to reason that buying locally produced produce is better for the environment than buying produce trucked thousands of miles from California etc. It also tastes a lot better, too. I try to buy local produce as much as possible.
Reducing and reusing and refusing to use plastic bags to carry our crap in is good too. Anything we can do to reduce the strain on the environment, we should. I am switching to the compact florescent light bulbs, because they save energy, and not incidentally, money.
I still believe that gardening organically, and reducing the amount of toxins going into the earth is preferable to big agribusiness, so given the choice between a carrot grown organically and one grown by other means, I'll choose the organic one. I don't agree with you that there is no difference to the footprint it leaves. I do admit that transporting organic produce is just as hard on the environment as any other produce, but there is a difference in how the production of that produce affects the environment.
ex_dovil323
May. 13th, 2007 06:53 am (UTC)
*applauds your post*
brunettepet
May. 13th, 2007 03:49 pm (UTC)
"If you're one of the few that gets their produce from farmer's markets, if you're one of the few that composts their own kitchen/yard waste, if you're one of the VERY few that composts your old cotton/wool clothes, towels, and sheets (did you know you could? You CAN!) and you use smart environmental practices in your garden (the right plant for the right place, native plants that aren't invasive or have high water/nutrition needs that can't be met in your soil, NO OVER WATERING), if you are one of the few that does these things, then this rant isn't for you." Phew! Thank goodness I can be all self righteous again! Though I ususally wear my clothes and use my sheets until they compost themselves...
soundingsea
May. 14th, 2007 09:09 pm (UTC)
I buy stuff. But we also signed up for a CSA (community supported agriculture - a local farmer is going to give us a box of produce a week, all summer). You gotta do what you think you can.
stoney321
May. 14th, 2007 09:24 pm (UTC)
Ha, I love the simplicity of your first comment. And those CSA's are seriously awesome. Good food locally, it's just a win/win situation. (And I think a lot of people don't know that Big Corporate Farmers are also in the "organic" business. I'm a believer in local farms, myself.)
entrenous88
May. 15th, 2007 09:55 am (UTC)
Awwww, that troll was so pathetic. It's been a while since I've seen the "Says YOU!" tactic from an anony mouse.
stoney321
May. 15th, 2007 12:07 pm (UTC)
I know! Even a "yo mama!" insult would be more challenging to my brain parts.

Also: HELLO!! *squishes you*
( 28 comments — Leave a comment )

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Reading this? I'm just curious. Because that's really detail-oriented of you. Feel free to stop reading. But you can see that there's more here, so are you going to keep reading? Really? That's pretty dedicated. I'm impressed. No, really. I'm not being sarcastic, why do you get like that? See, this is the problem I have with your mother - yes. YES. I'm going there. It's time we put all of our cards on the table.

I love you, why are you doing this? After all we've been through? You don't have to be like this. You know, still reading. You could be baking a pie. And then sharing it with me.

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