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Religion rant, and a question for you

So, most of you know that I'm writing about growing up in the Mormon church, both for NaNoWriMo and potential publication. In researching data to bolster my memories, etc. I came across one of the most bizarre things ever as "proof that the Book of Mormon" is historically, archaeologically, geographically, language-ography (is there a word for a language being an actual language?) truthful.

(For the record: no it isn't. Um, it's been shown time and again to be made up, those civilizations didn't exist, the purported language used is an amalgam of multiple other languages, and on and on. Also? Native American DNA isn't related IN ANY WAY to the Jews. Uh... that's what they believe. *cough*)

So, for those familiar with the story, a young man named Joseph was visited at night once a year for four years, instructed on his new lot in life as translator for "A New Testament of Jesus Christ," aka the Book of Mormon. In upstate New York, Joseph dug into a hill (Cumorah) and pulled out of a reinforced box - built into the hillside - a "book" made of gold plates. This book would be translated *cough* and become the 531 pages describing in excruciating detail of the mysterious and ancient people (this is the ONLY record of their "existence," mind) of the Americas. 531 paper pages are heavy enough, but these were on GOLD. PLATES. Lately, I've seen reference to this being changed from gold to a tin/copper alloy. <-- a world of what the fuck? This is 600BC. Tin and copper alloy.

But that's not the crazy stuff. The craziness is this - that those golden (possibly tin/copper alloy) plates were bound (and this is the important part!) with D-RINGS. Which shows that truly, God works in mysterious ways, for he made the Jewish Indians (of which there is but one record that no one has EVER laid eyes on and God took back to heaven with him) the original inventors of... a holy Trapper Keeper.

Yea verily! Behold the ribbed metal prongs - made cleverly of a tin/copper alloy that lo, wast smelted in vast pottery containers. Clear your hearts and fingers, for when the mighty d-rings snap closed, and yea verily I do sayeth unto you that thou wilt be caught unawares and feel a mighty pinch upon your flesh, and the flesh of your fathers if they do stand near unto you, for I am mighty and have giveth unto this, my Lost Tribe, the power and keeping of the Trapper, until time doth end and the judgment begins.

And divers others shall come forth with their circular binders, their copper-tin alloy that doth split in twain once it hast been threaded through a hole, and folded back not unlike the palm fronds to split apart with a high wind. But these are not welcome in my sight, for they were not brought forth unto the multitudes by my Jewish Indian engineers. Of which there is but one record, and I, the Lord your God, am sorry to sayeth that thou are filthy in thine soul, not unlike the swine and the swineherd who does tend the swine, and thou canst see it never. Nyaheth nyaheth nyaeth. I am the Alpha and the Omega of Mead.

~The Second Book of Caucasians 15: 2-3

This guy goes on to show that there were patents given 10 whole years after Joseph dug up and translated the book, which... what's his point? That Joseph should have been given the patent? The Jewish Indians should have? Because if it's the first, I will be SO HAPPY, because that means JOSEPH invented them (and they weren't found, ahem) and that just strengthens the whole "uh... you believe WHAT?" side of the argument. What I get from his going on about patents being awarded "after the fact" is that LOTS of people had that same idea for D-rings to bind paper. It's highly plausible that a guy visiting printing offices routinely would be exposed to PAPER BINDING ITEMS. Also: everyone awarded a patent for versions of the D-ring were in the PRINTING BUSINESS.

...it's not just me, right? You can see this, too? Or are you getting something else from his nattering on about patents? (Also, it takes FOR.EV.ER. for patents to go through, especially back then. Also, all the patents from July 1790 to July 1836 issued from the main building - it used to be ONE person that handled the nation's patents - were destroyed by fire. So people had to resubmit their patents. A lot of them were never recovered/resubmitted and are called the X-Patents.)

Finally: OCCAM'S RAZOR, PEOPLE. (The simplest answer is usually correct.) This is a lot of dancing and a lot of rig-a-morole to just say that you're justified in believing some wackadoo crap. And for the record: I used to believe WHOLE HEARTEDLY in this crap. And then I got smart. Yay, me! Wow. D-RING BINDERS!!! The hell?



( 66 comments — Leave a comment )
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:14 pm (UTC)
*points to icon*
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:29 pm (UTC)
I MEAN, SERIOUSLY. *continues scratching head*
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:21 pm (UTC)
I'm so glad you were able to figure out how nonsensical this all is.
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:30 pm (UTC)
Oh my god, you and me both. I went through a few years' period of being incredibly angry at being duped - the wasted time and energy. Now I channel it into writing. *g*
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:21 pm (UTC)
Religion is not only freaky, but it's obsessed with pointless details. Gah.

Nov. 27th, 2007 09:31 pm (UTC)
Yeah - I keep bringing back that "the simplest explanation is usually the best." I mean, they had a "prophet" explain the dinosaurs by saying god made our world from OTHER WORLDS. See, dinosaur bones, etc. are a TEST!

What the friggity fuck!!?
... - domenowtrent - Nov. 27th, 2007 09:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
... - stoney321 - Nov. 27th, 2007 09:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:24 pm (UTC)
language-ography (is there a word for a language being an actual language?)


a world of what the fuck? This is 600BC. Tin and copper alloy.

Tin/copper alloy = bronze. Been around since 4000 BC or so. ;-)

Apart from that, very interesting (in a WTF way) indeed. D-rings? Jewish Indians?


I really wish they would hang THAT on every classroom and courtroom wall. And I'm really looking forward to that book of yours.
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:34 pm (UTC)
I know that bronze has been around, I'm saying that they are now referring to the gold plates as tin and copper alloy. Like, those four words. (It's all a part of making things sound complex to fool people into believing. I've got a whole chapter on Faux Intellectualism working.)

And I need to research the use of bronze in the Americas in 600 BC. I don't remember hearing of any evidence of that from the ancient civilizations in the Yucatan... (Which is now where the Mormon church claims the Jewish Indians lived. And yet somehow, they managed to make it aaaaaaaall the way up to Upstate New York with their 2 ton golden journal/trapper keeper...)

GAH!! *clings to you and your sanity, omg*
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Nov. 27th, 2007 09:28 pm (UTC)
People generally don't look outside at the context of what gets handed down to them, they look at the source and if it's an authority figure that they've hitched their wagon to all thinking and questioning stops. Which is why I'm going to invent a religion and wear spiffy suits, or long flowing robes haven't quite decided, and look authorative and make up whatever comes into my head PUT THERE BY GOD! DA DA DUMMMM!

Conclusion: people are stupid.
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:35 pm (UTC)
But the thing is, I would TOTALLY join a religion you created because a) there would be cake b) there would be gay sex - if only in reading form and c) there would be drunken revelry.

It's like a modern Pan orgy, with disco lights! (And your icon is cracking me up)
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Nov. 27th, 2007 09:33 pm (UTC)
Brother Merrill, my Book of Mormon professor at BYU, was telling us that some Mormon (a historian) was having a fit because the Nephites wore lambs wool, or something, and sheep were not intriduced to the area until such and such time and Brother Merrill looked us all in the eye (it was quiet for like 20 minutes because there were 150 of us in class) and said, "This man has lost his faith. Had he kept his faith, he would disregard what he'd been told by the temporal world." Meaning, "So what if hundreds of historians, archeologist, and anthropologists think the BoM is bologna? The BoM says SHEEPS skin, and therefore it MEANS it, gosh darnnit."

That was my first semester at BYU. And that was my first solid indication that something was very VERY wrong with my life. The second indication was when Brother Merrill said it didn't matter who you married, as long as it was in the temple because in the Celestial Kingdom you can repick your eternal spouses anyway and everything we learned from Primary and Saturday's Warrior was bull.
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:38 pm (UTC)
THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME ABOUT THE SHEEP!! (There are also horses in the BoM, and THERE WERE NO HORSES before Columbus!!)

I found a quote from... Dallin H. Oaks? I think. Him or freaking Hugh Nibley that said something like, "Even if it turns out that the Nephites aren't related to the Jews, it doesn't take away from the truth of the Book of Mormon." UM, YES IT DOES!!!!!

Brother Merrill said WHAT about new spouses?!?! Oh my GOD. He's freaking insane! (He was right about Saturday's Warrior, however)
... - domenowtrent - Nov. 28th, 2007 06:32 am (UTC) - Expand
Nov. 27th, 2007 09:40 pm (UTC)
language-ography (is there a word for a language being an actual language?)

Umm, someone mentioned "linguistically" but I also put forth "etymologically."

I've never understood the Mormon religion. I've talked to Mormon people, read the Book of Mormon (my brother, in one of his drug induced curiosities ordered it from the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints) and a couple other publications that tried to explain what the Mormons believed. I just...didn't get it.

Then I read The God Makers and thought, "Okay. Crazy people got together and created a religion based on the precepts laid down by Masons?" Freaky.


Edited at 2007-11-27 09:41 pm (UTC)
Nov. 27th, 2007 10:13 pm (UTC)
Etymologically! I'm having one of those days where I want to say one word, but can't think of it.

And that's pretty much what they are, with some wanna be Jewish tones, some Free Thinking, and the ability to have lots of sex in the age of repression. WOW.
Nov. 27th, 2007 10:01 pm (UTC)
Wheeeeeeeee! A religion that worships school supplies! Perfect.
Nov. 27th, 2007 10:10 pm (UTC)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. All hail the mighty Day Planner! (Oh, wait: THEY DO THAT ONE.)
... - lynnenne - Nov. 27th, 2007 10:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Nov. 27th, 2007 10:43 pm (UTC)
Nothing Mormons believe makes sense. So, this is not surprising to me.
Nov. 28th, 2007 12:11 am (UTC)
I really shouldn't allow myself to be shocked anymore, and then I read about holy trapper keepers.

(And now I'm thinking of The Holy Hand Grenade)
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Nov. 27th, 2007 10:44 pm (UTC)
I so badly want someone to make a D-ring bound 531 gold (or tin/copper alloy) plates trapper keeper. It could work. And it would be awesome.
Nov. 28th, 2007 12:12 am (UTC)
how awesome would that be if someone showed up with one, claiming they were the Real Deal? AHAHAHAHAHA!
Nov. 27th, 2007 11:06 pm (UTC)
Okay, wait, wait, wait, Stoney. Walk me through it again. Mormonism is real because God invented the Trapper Keeper?

Somebody's confused, and I'm honestly not sure who.
Nov. 28th, 2007 12:13 am (UTC)
Oh, no, no that's just ONE part of The Truth. Don't forget the Quartz Sunglasses of Language Translation, the White Indians (because they were good...)

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Nov. 27th, 2007 11:23 pm (UTC)
You know, it makes sense to me. Think how much more practical it would have been if the ten commandments had been written on lined paper and brought down from the mount in a looseleaf binder. That way, if G-d later on found another commandment, no problem. Pop open the rings and slip it in! No fuss, no muss.

I give Mormons points for creative thinking.

And I am disappointed that you don't think I'm related to Native Americans. I was planning to claim that I am, in fact, The Last of the Mohicans. (Also, tap into that casino money. Damn.)
Nov. 28th, 2007 12:14 am (UTC)
And why didn't the Jew Jews (As opposed to the Indian Jews) create liquid paper? So - after a discussion on the merits of the new commandments required some adjustments - it could be done easy peasy!

And I'm sorry, but I've seen you and you just don't have the Innuit look. Wait, they're supposed to be Jews from the Tower of Babylon days... (I'm not making any of this up!! WHAT THE HELL.)
Nov. 27th, 2007 11:45 pm (UTC)

Oh, I saw this clip from Sweeney Todd and thought of you.
Nov. 28th, 2007 12:16 am (UTC)
ILU SACHA. And YOU for thinking of ME when you see HIM. :D (Which is as it should be, yea verily.)

Hahaha! Thank you for the link, I hadn't seen those yet.
Nov. 28th, 2007 12:40 am (UTC)
That just goes to show what I've always thought- LDS is remarkably like LSD. The LDS may induce hulicinations and strange trips.

*hugs* So glad you got smart.=)
Nov. 28th, 2007 04:20 am (UTC)
Hahahaha! Yes, they are... strangely similar. (And thank you - ME, TOO.)
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Nov. 28th, 2007 04:20 am (UTC)
I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE CREATION MUSEUM, OMG. What on EARTH?! Wow. Oh my goodness, Anne, is it on level with the peanut butter proves creationism theory??

I will be pouring over that site in the morning, yes ma'am. (THank you for the link!)
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Nov. 28th, 2007 03:28 am (UTC)
the power and keeping of the Trapper lol. I can only envision this as being covered with sparkly unicorn stickers and "I ♥ Simon LeBon" written all over it.

I greatly enjoy your translation of the Book of Mormon. You should write your own version, and when people get pissy about it all you'd have to do is accuse them of being heretics or something.

A couple of Mormons creeped me right out about a month or so ago. Two guys who were clean-cut and attractive much in the plasticy way that Stepford Wives are appeared on my doorstep, pitch black outside and I'm off the main road so I don't even know how they realized there was a house here, and politely but persistently harassed me to let them come in the house and let them steal my soul and turn me into a robot. I'm paraphrasing a little. Then the next morning I noticed dress shoe footprints in the flowerbeds in front of a couple of my windows. o_O
Nov. 28th, 2007 04:19 am (UTC)
EW EW EW EW. Seriously?! That's freaking weird.

(They totally wanted to steal your soul. Remember Kathy, Buffy's roommate? How she seemed so clean cut and nice? And how she was EVIL? I think they're just like that.)
Nov. 28th, 2007 03:42 am (UTC)
...ancient trapper-keeper. Of GOLD (or bronze...hey, why not silver, while you're at it?? What did silver ever do to you? WHY YOU GOTTA BE LIKE THAT?)

On a related note, I'm thinking about asking for this for Christmas. I dunno. It looks like it might be an interesting read.
Nov. 28th, 2007 04:18 am (UTC)
You know, the information is interesting, but Jessop is such a BOOOOOOORING writer. It's like every single Mormon book out there - bad and flowery writing style. You should save your money and check it out from the library. That way you won't feel guilty for skimming. :)

(If you can find an old copy of In My Father's House, that's the really interesting one.)
Nov. 28th, 2007 05:50 am (UTC)
Having been to Mormon Sunday School (Grandma and my aunt are Mormon)I have to say I found this profoundly amusing. (Personally I'm a baptized catholic - raised mormon - discovered wicca/witchcraft - baptized Jehovah's Witness hooray for brainwashing - then back to being wicca/witchccraft at age of 18 and never looked back). We visited the temple in Navoo (I think that's how it's spelled), IL because gran wanted to see the new one. I laughed my ass off inside at the inverted masonic-looking pentacles all around the top of the temple. Though gorgeous artwork inside.

Holy trapper keepers. *giggles* Makes me long for the 80's all over again. *giggles some more*

I will also say that Mitt Romney doesn't sound like any Mormon I know.
Nov. 28th, 2007 03:07 pm (UTC)
Really, you don't think so about Mitt? I think he sounds like every single leader I've ever known, which is precisely why I'm campainging AGAINST him. *G*

And man, you've run the gamut on religions, huh? (Hahahaha, Navoo! Oh my gosh, I remember a youth field trip there. Um, Joseph was a 32nd Degree Mason, a fact most Mormons aren't familiar with, or dismiss as irrelevant.)
Nov. 28th, 2007 02:24 pm (UTC)
Mmmmmm, stationary-based religion! But who invented the hole-punch? Because I want to follow that there prophet, yo.

<3 <3 <3

Nov. 29th, 2007 04:49 pm (UTC)

(Oh, those were the Jaredites, who migrated from the Tower of Babel via ASIA. Um....)

But please remember, I invented Post It Notes. [/Romy] (or did we determine that was Michelle?)
Nov. 28th, 2007 05:57 pm (UTC)
Hi, This is a pretty interesting post. I really feel that the Book of Mormon is the weakest part of the whole LDS church. I have a copy on my shelf, but I can't even read it. When the young Missionaries show up at my door, I have to think, why don't you just push the teaching of Jesus (Jesus was pretty cool if you look at what he actually said) if you want to push something... But the book of Mormon just won't cut it. I know a lot of church-going LDS types who are great people; for example, I had to run a used book sale where we turned around like 25000 books, and a couple of missionary girls came and helped us sort. They didn't have to do that, but they were interested in volunteering wherever they could. Where does "wholesomeness" and "a strong value system" cut out and become "a way to socially control you"? I hope you talk about that in your book.... The LDS Church is very conservative, the folks are numerous -- they are nice folks, but they will vote as conservatives, and those of us on the Happy Gay Internet Porn side need to think this through! If we run into missionaries, should we try converting them back? How did you "get smart"? What do your family say?
Nov. 28th, 2007 09:12 pm (UTC)
First of, hello! (I love it when I get comments like this from people I don't know. Welcome, welcome!)

As for the BoM, you're right - it's an incredibly weak link, but unfortunately, they can't see that. Their entire belief system centers on that book being exactly what Joe Smith said it was, period. One of their prophets (Joseph F. Smith, a complete nutjob) even said (without irony, I might add) that the entire church hangs on Joseph Smith's story being true or not, that there was no room for grey on this.

And one of the points I'm attempting to make in this (hopefully published) book I'm writing is that they would be FAR more successful (and less frightening/odd) if they took the magic/religion out of their message and focused on their ideals of family being the center of your life, service for your fellow man - and with a smile, or it doesn't count. They do those things very well.

If you meet missionaries, you just smile and tell them no thanks. They'll try, but they'll get it. They get LOADS of no's.

My family is sad that I'm not active, and that my kids (I have three small children) aren't being raised Mormon, and I think they have hope that I'll "come back to my senses." And here I am hoping they would finally come to theirs...

I've always had reservations about some things in the LDS church (the Trinity, priesthood, etc.) and finally stopped listening to them, and listened to everyone around me. Then I came to the conclusion that there's nothing after living here, and I'm very happy knowing that. :)
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Nov. 28th, 2007 10:02 pm (UTC)
Re: The Sticks REVEALED!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHA. That's the best picture EVER.

(Also, I just sent you the first draft of Stallioncrest. WHOOPIE!)
Re: The Sticks REVEALED!! - fannishliss - Nov. 28th, 2007 11:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
Dec. 19th, 2007 06:01 am (UTC)
Hey there... I've recently been getting visited by Mormon missionaries - I was stupid enough to let them into my house and now they won't leave me alone OMG. I've been talking about my experience getting visited by them and claudia79ad recommended I check out your "Mormon" tag for the LOLz. You have a lot of interesting things to say!

I've been very impressed at how dedicated, nice and polite the Mormon missionaries are, as well as how they have such great family & community ties. If only their religion wasn't so batshit fucking insane and completely unbelievable. I mean seriously, gold plates that we have no evidence of now? Seeing stones, which we also have no evidence of? But most of all, the whole thing with the Native Americans being the lost tribe of Israel - despite all the DNA evidence that this is complete bullshit, Mormons still steadfastly refuse to see the reality of the situation.

Also, hey, can you explain something to me? If the Word of Wisdom says "no hot beverages", why are you only not supposed to drink coffee and black/green tea, but cocoa and herbal tea is okay? I mean, if you're gonna be crazy with your religious beliefs, at least be crazily consistent.

Anyways, sorry to spam your LJ. Just wanted to say that I like your posts on this subject. :)

Edited at 2007-12-19 06:02 am (UTC)
Dec. 19th, 2007 01:33 pm (UTC)
Hi! Oh, I never mind people coming in to chat, so don't worry about it.

One of the points I'm making with my book is that yes, they ARE so nice and sweet and kind and dedicated to helping people and loving their families. And they also believe absolute horseshit. :D

If you need to get rid of the missionaries, tell them you've been reading Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" and that you believe Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a pervert and you're not interested. That should get them gaping and sweating. *g* (And never open your door to them! They're trained to hold on like pit bulls!)

Your icon is hysterical, btw!
... - luna_k - Dec. 19th, 2007 02:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
( 66 comments — Leave a comment )


Are You Actually

Reading this? I'm just curious. Because that's really detail-oriented of you. Feel free to stop reading. But you can see that there's more here, so are you going to keep reading? Really? That's pretty dedicated. I'm impressed. No, really. I'm not being sarcastic, why do you get like that? See, this is the problem I have with your mother - yes. YES. I'm going there. It's time we put all of our cards on the table.

I love you, why are you doing this? After all we've been through? You don't have to be like this. You know, still reading. You could be baking a pie. And then sharing it with me.

Time Wot It Is

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