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I'm surprised I'm not bald yet, from all the hair tearing I'm doing.

So, I'm really really not getting the general populace's (that is crying out "they took err religious freedoms!") disconnect with why it IS NOT ABOUT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. It is about abuse. Children being abused, women being turned into baby factories, and none of them having any say in their lives.

Lemme break it down for ya (fellas):
100 kids > 4 years old
316 less than or equal to 4 years old.

YFZ Ranch? 4 years in the making. It's a BABY FACTORY. (Among other things.)

57 mothers have children older than 5, and were asked to leave custody
82 mothers of young (nursing) children were allowed to stay.

...I wonder how many of the 82 are also a part of the 100 kids over 4? Probably a frightening percentage. (here's an article with the stats I mentioned.)

And let's talk about "religious freedom" for a moment. Say this is a religion (it's not; it's a cult.) You, as a US citizen, have the right to believe in the God Of Your Choice and worship him in safety, yes? So why did this ranch need 10 foot high security walls (of FOUR FEET THICK cement) with security towers? And razor wire all around the perimeter? And gun-wielding sentries at the corners of the ranch? But yeah - if a 14 year old girl didn't want to marry the 64 year old step-uncle she was assigned to, she could just pack her Little House on the Prairie gowns, her Buster Brown lace-ups, grab a few scones, and saunter right on out of that compound and go to University and study evolutionary chemistry like she always dreamed. Yeah. Easy as falling off a log. A log in fairy-unicorn land where the mountains are gumdrops, Chaaaaarlieeeee. [/random] Shun the non-believer, shuuun! (There's a new Charlie cartoon, btw!)

Here's the definition of a cult, by the way:
  • a quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views,practices or beliefs
  • A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist,with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader
  • devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle or lifestyle, especially when regarded as a fad
  • a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members
  • a group with extreme or dangerous philosophical or political ideas
  • the cult has no clear locus of final authority beyond the individual member (which is Warren Jeffs or Joseph Smith, even though mainstream Mormons will say Christ is the leader of their religion; it's really whoever is the current "prophet.")

Psychologists define a participant in a cult in the following way:
  • People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
  • Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
  • They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from the leader;
  • They get a new identity based on the group;
  • They are subject to entrapment and their access to information is severely controlled

Gosh, what does that sound like to you? I can tell you this: there's no equivalent to a lapsed Catholic in this faith. You're in, or you're out. (And if you're out, you are dead to them. Sometimes literally.)

Let me remind you that the FLDS are not allowed to wear/own anything red, because that's the Devil's Color. ...anyone remember what Warren Jeffs was picked up in? If you said a red Cadillac Escalade give yourself fifty bonus points. They don't believe man went to the moon, yet the UEP (their bank) owns a business that sells the iron-rich sands of Southern Utah to NASA to manufacture heat shields. Huh. That there is a head scratcher!

This is not about POLYANDRY/POLYGYNY/POLYAMORY. This isn't a group of adults coming together to live as a group of equals. This is about control, both here and in the afterlife. This *is* about polygamy. Don't confuse the two - they couldn't be more opposite to each other if they tried. The whole basis of polygamy is control. Yes, it's been around forever. Do we really need to be reminded about polygamy being a SOURCE OF POWER for men in charge throughout the millennia? Good lord. It's not about the women of the YFZ being "old enough" to choose for themselves. They have NO CHOICE. Not in anything! ...and to argue that point is freaking anti-feminist, because it's all about the women being married to ONE man. It doesn't go the other way. EVER. So. Let's just drop that as a viable option, shall we?

And just because "Sarah" isn't being paraded in front of everyone to prove the Rangers had a reason to go in there... Trust me. They had reason. And they have it all documented. They're building a case so that this won't happen again. I'm proud to be Texan right now. (I mean... I'm always proud, but even more so. *G*) Let's not forget the consummation bed, the little pre-teens with babies, the GUN-MANNED SENTRIES.

Finally I'm absolutely disgusted (and unfortunately, not surprised) to read the comments on the Mormon owned Utah paper, Deseret News, how disgusted the Mormons are with how Texas is handling this. Hey, here's a thought: if y'all didn't turn a blind eye for over 100 years, we wouldn't have had to clean up YOUR MESS. But let this serve as a reminder: Mormons are polygamists, too, they just do it "in heaven" now. My own freaking g-g-grandfather was one of the first publicly called to polygamy by Brigham Young, so don't tell me the LDS church has "nothing to do with these people" like it's some alien group that showed up unannounced. "We're from... France." [/Coneheads]

(Please note the insidious racism - basically, if "inner city sluts" can have babies at 16, why not these girls? It would take me far more patience than I have to explain the "Oh, hell NO YOU DI'INT" to them.)

They had posted article upon article about how "different" the "True" Mormons are; how they aren't the same thing as the "Fundies." Um, Book of Mormon? Check. Joseph Smith? check. Same organizational structure? Check. Temple service (relatively) the same? Check. So, they "dress differently" and that's why you aren't to be confused? How about a nice cup of shut the fuck up? (And what does Fundamental mean? Right. Actually, they are living the REAL Mormon doctrine according to Joseph Smith, more so than the modern Mormons, at any rate. Which... how jacked up is that?) But no, let's feel sorry for the poor Mormons getting caught in the crossfire for their Frankenstein monster. EYE. ROLL.

Shame on the person who tries to take away the focus of child abuse, rape, and slavery and make this about "religious freedom" like there's a king telling the people of the US they can't worship god. Shame on Arizona and Utah for letting this fester in the unpopulated sun of their states. And shame on the Mormons/Joseph Smith for creating this monster.

It's possible that I need a deep breath and a walk outside to stop and sniff the newly blooming roses. I think I'll do that, actually.


( 57 comments — Leave a comment )
Apr. 21st, 2008 02:12 pm (UTC)

[b]Word[/b], re FLDS matter. So many spin doctors it's skewing the Earth's orbit.

Re happier things: Yay! It sounds as if, though you don't mention it, your knees are also steadily improving. And I am a tad knee-centric. ;)

Re: truckticles--I've seen those on muscle cars up here in NY. My first reaction is to laugh; my second is to paint them blue. Does that make me a bad person?

Once more, back to FLDS: once I'm in Australia, I'll be unable to earn money for three months due to visa issues. Which means I'll have lots of time to read, and comment, and review... :D
Apr. 21st, 2008 02:15 pm (UTC)
Oooh, Knees! Yes, I'm almost to 100%. Doc on Friday gave the all-clear for regular exercise, barring any downhill-activity, but I'm good with hitting the track and getting some hard-walking in. \o/ I go back in two weeks to double check, and then I'll be good for... (wait for it) ...RUNNING. Dude. It's been YEARS.

GO GET YOUR KNEES FIXED! I bend my leg, and there's no crunching. No pain. It's weird. And awesome! But weird.

AHahahaha, I wish you would paint them blue! That's hilarious.

(I'm looking into polishing up the first three chapters - getting them in order, at least - and trying to shop those now. A "strike while the iron's hot" idea. I'm.... not sure how to do that, but that's the plan, any way! :D)
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... - stoney321 - Apr. 21st, 2008 03:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
Apr. 21st, 2008 02:40 pm (UTC)
The people I wokr with keep saying to me 'oh, it's like that Big Love series you get from the other libraries' and I go 'uh no, this is like much much MUCH more extreme than what's in the show'.

Truck nuts crack me up, they come in a wide assortment of colors too- http://www.truck-nuts.com/balls.html
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:02 pm (UTC)
Yeah - it's not Big Love (even though it is - they're just not pretty like the women of that show. And... that show makes it seem sexy. It isn't.)

TRUCK NUTS. So damn funny!
Apr. 21st, 2008 02:41 pm (UTC)
But, but...their religion says they should get to rape and molest little girls. And, we have religious freedom in this country. Obviously that means they get to rape and molest little girls without being punished for it!


And, can I just note, for the record, that having sex with someone 13 years or younger, which some of these girls are? IS PEDO-FREAKING-PHILIA. YAY for giving pedophiles a free pass.

[headdesks again]
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:03 pm (UTC)
People trying to pass this off as religious freedom are nucking futz. They're either participants, or willfully ignorant. Either way, I have no respect for anyone supporting this in any fashion.
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:22 pm (UTC)
The religious freedom mantra puts my teeth on edge.

Outlawing truck balls? What about my freedom of expressing really bad taste??
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:46 pm (UTC)
Next they'll be telling me I can't wear my old man's ratty britches with the dick-bidness cut out to make a tank top for hot weather! I mean, I thought we's supposed to be recylin' and stuff.

You can have my bad taste when you pry it from my cold, dead, fried-gizzard-filled mouth!
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:29 pm (UTC)
In other news of a happy nature! I had a germaine_pet in my house this weekend after she finished up her conference and was reminded all over again why I think she's so terrific. Funny, smart, energetic (even with a stomach bug!) and why do my friends live so damn far away?? Fortunately, we had beautiful weather all weekend, so there was outside eating and mojitos, shopping, and lounging. Add in a great friend and you have the makings of a fantastic weekend. Which I had. <3

I know this is some sort of code for: Lynne farts a lot and is demanding and Spike-obsessed. Oh, I'll crack this code- you just wait!
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:47 pm (UTC)
(You would make an awesome code breaker. That is EXACTLY what I meant.) That woman could peel the paint off the side of a house with the force of her farts, I'm sad to say.

She made my girls cry with her incessant yammering about vampire butt sex. It... it wasn't pleasant, Chris. *cries*
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Apr. 21st, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC)
Thanks for the birthday wishes. I'd love a spanking from you. :)
Apr. 21st, 2008 03:48 pm (UTC)
RAWR! Lemme do some pushups to get my bicep flexed for Maximum Force.

*licks fingertips to make them whistle*
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Apr. 21st, 2008 04:03 pm (UTC)
I've been trying not to watch news reports on it, because it's breaking my heart. All those tiny children, separated from Mom because Mom is an abuse enabler (but the tiny children don't understand - they only know they've been snatched out of their homes by scary strangers. Obviously can't be left with their families, but...man, they must be terrified.). :( Sucks all the way around, you know?
Apr. 21st, 2008 04:25 pm (UTC)
Re: flds
It has to be hard for the kids, true, but the reports I've been reading have them sounding relatively happy. I mean, look at it like this: you're one of 38 -50+ siblings. You have seven other "mothers." You NEVER see your dad, because he's working/visiting his other wives.

The kids know EACH OTHER. They're all together, so there's some semblance of family, and it's the one they're most familiar with.

(All accounts I've ever been told directly/read have the other mothers taking their frustrations out on the "other" wives' kids, so it might be the longest some of these kids have gone without abuse. I bet that feels good.)
Apr. 21st, 2008 04:25 pm (UTC)
Any idea of how many of these children under 4 have mothers who are themselves minors? Quite a few, I suspect.
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that's something I asked up there. I'm thinking it's a good (read: horrible) percentage, too.
Apr. 21st, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC)
I will love you forever for making a Squidbillies reference.

"When Jesus was president- he ate babies.... Or was that Satan?
One of them ate babies."

Apr. 21st, 2008 05:25 pm (UTC)
I may be the only person ever that has written Squidbillies fic, too. (Um, a Harry Potter/Squidbillies crossover. I know. I'm insane.) I used to play Early Cuyler in an RPG many moons ago, too. Heee! ([Bad username: Booty_hunter&quot;])

That there's my truck-boat-truck!
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Apr. 21st, 2008 04:56 pm (UTC)
It's posts like these that make me realize how far gone I was into the church. Whenever I see someone saying, "Mormons are a cult" or "FLDS = LDS" or anything even remotely similar, I get all deffensive and start giving a speech about the difference and how God told them to do this and that--and then I realize that I do not believe in their god. I do not agree with any of their teachings, and most Mormons frankly make me crazy (especially a Sunday school teacher I had in Missouri that lamented the fact that they were no longer doing polygamy and wouldn't that just be sooo nice??).

All of that and I still get riled up and want to pick a fight to defend them. It's really disgusting.
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:28 pm (UTC)
*hugs you* Please know that I write these to remind myself of that, too. It's SO HARD to stop knee-jerk reacting to people dissing the church. I mean, we were taught to correct people from birth, it's not easy to unlearn that crap.

And hahahaha to that sunday school teacher saying they don't do polygamy. Just not physically. My dad had two wives in heaven, all the last three prophets and the 1 and 2nd counselors have spiritual wives, too.

I have to LITERALLY say to myself that I'm not supposed to defend the LDS church anymore when I hear "outsiders" talk about them. It's sick.
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Apr. 21st, 2008 05:08 pm (UTC)
Those marketing departments are working overtime. It's funny because I was talking with a co-worker of mine who was raised LDS and she's been reading about it and saying that with the exception of polygamy, which she was told was evil growing up, they have the exact same value system. No wonder they're working so hard.

The double-standard racism of who's okay to have babies at 16 and who can't makes me scream. My father used to make comments like that when I was growing up about inner city girls and I wanted to smack him and remind him of all the poor white girls in my high school's teen mom program.

(O/T: The funniest insult I ever received in high school was being called a "fucking dyke" by a girl walking into the teen mom room. All I could think was that at least I wasn't going to have a baby via lesbian sex.)
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:30 pm (UTC)
OoooOooh, the now-dead President of the church, GOrdon B. Hinckley would be SO GLAD to hear that co-worker say that. He worked his butt off to make the LDS church look normal from the outside. But yeah, they're crazy, too.

I sat with my mouth open the first time I read someone on a board say how it's apparently "okay" for inner-city "sluts" to have babies, and the only reason they're going after the FLDS girls is their religion. Good. Lord.

(Ahahahahaha. Awesome.)
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:21 pm (UTC)
The FLDS stuff has been giving me the creeping ick for weeks now. WTFF, how is the clearing of that bloody compound about RELIGION? Those poor young girls. What kind of painted-on brain does it take to confuse the issue that much?
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:31 pm (UTC)
It's the only leg they have to stand on, so they're banging that drum so loudly in hopes that it'll get picked up by the media and they'll have a chance of getting off. I see it as my personal duty to make sure that doesn't happen. ;)
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Apr. 21st, 2008 05:31 pm (UTC)
Religious. Freedom. People are arguing for cradle-robbing, child-molesting, enslaving, exploiting, pseudoincestuous cultists by citing religious freedom?

...I think my left eye may actually explode from the amount of twitching it's doing.

How can ANYONE think that a place built like a fucking prison filled to the brim with miserable teenage moms sharing a husband old enough to be their father or even their grandfather, with tots the rest of the civillized world considers them too young to have hanging off their tits, should be protected by the government's coda on, say, not arresting Jews, Muslims or athiests for faith crimes? IT IS NOT THE SAME. No one gives a flying fuck in a rolling donut that they're Mormons; we're just a wee bit concerned about the fact that there are elderly men knocking up teenaged HAREMS in a compound designed to be more secure than the bloody ADX Florence.

...sorry. Was already having a not-good day. This is just icing on the cake.

Yay for good times with Lynne. :-) I envy the awesomeness of your weekend.
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:48 pm (UTC)
It was a TERRIFIC weekend, and I've got another one coming up this weekend with southernbangel and marenfic! \o/

And one saving grace about all of this brouhaha is that smart people see through their lies. People are holding their feet to the fire, and it is GLORIOUS IN MINE SIGHT.
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Apr. 21st, 2008 05:36 pm (UTC)
It's illegal to un-castrate your truck (and the way some of those people drive, they could be trying to mate their truck), but forcing children to have sex is religious freedom.

I got nuthin' else to say.
Apr. 21st, 2008 05:46 pm (UTC)
I swear to the g-d of your choice (see how respectful I am? *G*), if I believed in an apocalypse (aside from the inevitable zombie apocalypse), I'd think this was a sign of Things To Come.

You just can't make this shit up! (Believe me, I've tried. It always comes out as horse soap opera, instead. Hahaha.)

I hope your Pesach was lovely, by the way!
Apr. 21st, 2008 07:55 pm (UTC)
After watching that Mormon documentary, I am even more horrified than ever. If that's possible.

Also the truckballs? OMG. I...the...wha...TRUCKBALLS???

Um, do hey swing? thatwouldbesocreepy.

I want to paint them bluuuuue. Or maybe tie something around them so, you know...they don't get off. ::is reading entirely too much slash::

Er. I must go write a story about kitties that used to be men, or something. Or statues. Or Indiana Jones. (stories that are all in progress, actually)
Apr. 21st, 2008 08:39 pm (UTC)

Today I had a conversation with a coworker about the plygs. We agreed that they were all crazy and that it was sad. And then he told me how he doesn't believe in evolution.


So that's pretty damn crazy.
Apr. 21st, 2008 11:10 pm (UTC)
I get sicker and sicker of things done in the name of religious freedom. (I know a few Mormons and I try not to get into discussions about reliogon with them but I keep wondering how can they be apart of something that approves of this kind of thing?) I am a born again Christian so religous freedom is something near and dear to my heart but this is not religous freedom. This stuff is criminal and I say, "God bless Texas" for getting the children out.=)
Apr. 21st, 2008 11:22 pm (UTC)
Every time I read your posts, I just wanna scream some more. Most of this isn't even being COVERED in the mainstream media, though I have been hearing a lot about religious freedom. I think the essential problem is this, all of our laws are only valid if you don't break any others. ARGH. Those poor poor children. On an upside, there was an article in this month's Marie Claire, I think people are genuinely interested in getting more educated about the situation. At least with that, another compound like this cannot get started.
Apr. 22nd, 2008 12:00 am (UTC)
Hi! Came here from a link in ginmar's comments (which may be where a lot of your new traffic is coming from) and I want to say THANK YOU for all your posts on this. I was horrified by the news to start with, and it's both disturbing and reassuring to read explanations from someone who really understands the background of what's going on there.

I do have one minor quibble with you on how you're defining terms. At least as I learned them (anthropology courses, mostly), here's how it goes:

Polygamy = plural marriage, inclusively. Any configuration involving more than two adults. The second half of the word is from "gamos," marriage.

Polygyny = one husband, multiple wives. Second half from "gynos," woman.

Polyandry = one wife, multiple husbands. From "andros," man. You don't see a lot of this in history or current nonindustrial societies (although it HAS happened). FUNNY, THAT...

Polyamory = the current techno-hippie-weirdo consenting-adults model, inclusive. May contain structures like "polyfidelity" (a closed circle group of more-than-two partners) or "intimate networks" (otherwise known as everyone needs Google Calendars and a scorecard to keep track of who's doing who and when).

So when you say "this is not polyandry" you're totally right in that there aren't multiple husbands for one wife, but I *think* the contrasting term you want when you say "Pacific Northwest" is "polyamory."

And the anthropology geek in me wishes everyone would say "polygyny" when they're talking about the whacko cults. When I'm not wishing they'd just call it a RAPE farm, which it is too.

But please keep writing, and I hope to see the book!
Apr. 22nd, 2008 01:17 pm (UTC)
Hello! I didn't know I was linked in ginmar's journal (or, forgive me, who ginmar is. I'm hopelessly lame when it comes to venturing off my f-list here...)

I addressed my meaning re: vernacular in another post. Also, this was typed in a fit of pique filled with spelling errors, etc. Adjustments have been made.

I wish we could convince the media to stop saying "forced to marry" when they mean "forced into sexual slavery" as well. They, uh, mean quite a different thing, huh? What was that whole thing about sex selling, and they're not following their own logic? ;)
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Apr. 22nd, 2008 12:07 am (UTC)
One day I'm going to steal a car, ram raid it into various stores and fill the boot up with goods, drive around swigging a bottle of vodka and randomly shoot at people and claim that I'm merely expressing my religion.

It's funny that we've come so far and yet kind of haven't. You can bet if someone was 'expressing their relgion' and was exploiting those that weren't women (or you know, children made out to be woman) there would have been a bigger outcry a hell of a lot sooner. But if you don't have a voice you pretty much become invisible in society.

But major applause that something is now being done - hopefully by pulling these kids out there's going to be hope for some of their futures.
Apr. 22nd, 2008 01:05 am (UTC)
This is Jill's incoherent, spitting rage.
Right there with ya, bay-bee.
Apr. 22nd, 2008 01:13 am (UTC)
Uh, yeah. I've seen the "but we're just practicing our religion and we ought to be free to do so!" stuff. As a lawyer, it makes me roll my eyes. Read fricking U.S. v. Reynolds where the US Supreme Court made a very clear distinction between what you believe and what you do. If what you do breaks the laws that are in place for everyone's protection (like the laws against child abuse and slavery), then you don't get protection. It's really that simple. That, by the way, was the case that basically said that Mormons couldn't practice polygamy and get away with it. Things haven't changed with Lawrence v. Texas, although that's what their defense lawyers are saying. It's not about having orgies in the bedroom between consenting adults. It's about raping little girls, and the state has always been able to define statutory rape.
Apr. 22nd, 2008 03:28 am (UTC)
i haven't read this enough to really process (honestly the whole situation is overwhelming for me) but i think maybe what you mean when you said "polyandry" up there was "polyamory" one being women having many husbands the other being the whole consenting adults with good communication skills being in love with each other.
May. 5th, 2008 05:33 pm (UTC)
I was linked to you by ruthless1. I'm so mad at the lack of critical thinking being displayed by these people. The latest was Parker's "but she's really over 18 and just wants to stay with her kid so she's lying and saying she's under 18" in the same article where it's listed that she also has a 20 month old baby. Wait, let me do the math... 9 mo + 20 mo + 9 mo = 38 mo, right? and 18 years - 3 years = ... under 17. Hmm. 19 years - 3 years = ... under 17. Wait, let's try again: 20 years - 3 years = oh! 17! er... maybe? As far as I can tell. NOT TO MENTION THE IDIOTS WHO KEEP SAYING "Well, it was legal to get married at 14 in 2005 with the parents' consent. Yeah. That would be LEGAL MARRIAGE, you MORON! Which... these weren't.)

Um, sorry. I am so angry about this. I'm venting. Hi! I friended your book journal. Nice to meet you.
May. 5th, 2008 06:11 pm (UTC)
Hello! And I encourage people to be angry about this. I've been angry about it for a few decades, but my rants have fallen on deaf ears. Until now, thank god.

And exactly: it's not a legal marriage. It's a "spiritual" marriage, which means bubkis to the law. It's rape, systematically, and encouraged by the parents. Let's take them down!
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( 57 comments — Leave a comment )


Are You Actually

Reading this? I'm just curious. Because that's really detail-oriented of you. Feel free to stop reading. But you can see that there's more here, so are you going to keep reading? Really? That's pretty dedicated. I'm impressed. No, really. I'm not being sarcastic, why do you get like that? See, this is the problem I have with your mother - yes. YES. I'm going there. It's time we put all of our cards on the table.

I love you, why are you doing this? After all we've been through? You don't have to be like this. You know, still reading. You could be baking a pie. And then sharing it with me.

Time Wot It Is

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