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It'll make sense in a minute. So, in doing rewrites, I'm punching up a little section about how Mormons aren't really Christians and why (because of how they view Christ as their literal brother and how any good Mormon can become a god, God was once a Mormon guy on another planet, etc. etc.) and remembered a story of when I learned in church how Jesus... came about. Ahem. Poll time!

Poll #1614124 How Jesus was "made:" Eh or Bat-scheisse Crazy?

On a scale of 1 being "eh, not so much" to 10 as "WAIT, WHAT? NO, WHAT?! ....WHAT?" rate the concept that LDS teaches that God showed up and had physical sex with Mary - like, climbed on her, thrust, orgasmed, magical God-sperm to Mary-egg happenings.

Mean: 8.57 Median: 10 Std. Dev 2.62
1
13(7.5%)
2
1(0.6%)
3
2(1.1%)
4
1(0.6%)
5
5(2.9%)
6
2(1.1%)
7
5(2.9%)
8
18(10.3%)
9
19(10.9%)
10
108(62.1%)

Stoney, you just:

blew my mind.
72(26.0%)
made me blow chunks.
42(15.2%)
offended me greatly, how dare you?
6(2.2%)
keep pulling me back in.
58(20.9%)
can't startle me like that.
48(17.3%)
told me something I believe in deeply.
2(0.7%)
told me something I've known for years.
17(6.1%)
get your ass back in your kitchen and get some lunch.
32(11.6%)


So! This'll be fun to find out about. I remember it being VERY WEIRD that this old man was telling us all this story on the traditional "Christmas story" day of church. I was freaked out. Then he started crying, and honestly, that freaked me out more, how "beautiful" it was that this virgin was consummating her love of her god in such a way.

HOW ABOUT GOD JUST CRACKS HIS HEAD OPEN LIKE ZEUS DID THAT ONE TIME? A lot less trouble, imo. Boy Kitteh (Smudge) is perched on my shoulder awaiting your reply.

[ETA] Oh, and as always, please feel free to comment with why you voted the way you did, etc. etc. Discussion is the word of the day today!

Comments

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flake_sake
Sep. 2nd, 2010 04:56 pm (UTC)
I don't know, considering in the christian version he magically force insaminated her, the concept of him actually physically raping her doesn't seem like such a stretch.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 04:58 pm (UTC)
I think that the general consensus of how the insemination "happened" in the Christian world is just a magical handwave. Which, still, I agree with you that it's a crappy thing to do to someone engaged to another man. But that's never seemed to bug anyone in charge of Christianity. (Which is a whoooooooole 'nother kettle of worms.)

Thanks for participating!
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ladycyndra
Sep. 2nd, 2010 04:58 pm (UTC)
Blew my mind! Because I had no idea that's what they believe. o_o Learn something new everyday!
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:01 pm (UTC)
Yeah. I grew up thinking that was how it was. BIG SHOCK when I mentioned that in a friend's church once. Uh....
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kita0610
Sep. 2nd, 2010 04:58 pm (UTC)
Uhm.

o0

What?
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:02 pm (UTC)
In repsonse to above, too: No, Mary and Joseph were engaged. Mary got knocked up by God, which caused a scandal, which made people think Joseph was "such a good dude" for sticking by her side, and GOOD HELL.

Yeah, no matter how you look at it, Mary gets the raw end of the deal.
brutti_ma_buoni
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:08 pm (UTC)
Just to clarify my non-insanity in responses. Not a Christian, not a believer. I don't believe in the incarnation or the divinity of Christ, so some guy (call him God if you will) actually having sex and making said baby? Makes more sense than the alternative.

It's pretty crappy as a religious position, though, tbh.

There are some very funny medieval plays (well, at least one, I think it's part of the York mystery cycle) which have Joseph finding out Mary's pregnant and being distinctly disbelieving at the whole 'son of god, miraculous child, virgin birth' thing. Which doesn't mean they were not believers, but at least allows space for the buzzuh moment...
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:09 pm (UTC)
Yeah, Mary gets the shaft no matter how you tweak the tale, right? Um, literally in the LDS sense. :)
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captainofidiots
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:10 pm (UTC)
One of my best friends was raised Mormon, so I'd get to hear lots of wonderful stories. It doesn't get any less creepy, though.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:12 pm (UTC)
I think the creepiest part was this old man weeping about the beauty of God and this virgin teenager. O_O
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entrenous88
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:12 pm (UTC)
Ew. Ew because I'm guessing it gets used as justification for all those teen and child bride things, like the perpetrators insisting, "I'm following in God's ways! Literally!"

Ew. And wow. The whole godlike complex that's possible for men in that faith. Yikes.

And the whole thing about Christ visiting the Native Americans, that I swear I saw in some film when I was four (I wish the hell could remember where, or why) is Mormon doctrine too, right?
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:13 pm (UTC)
UH HUH. Ding ding ding ding! Give Entrenous a prize for being the most intuitive here.

Godlike complex - when they think they literally will BE gods, does it get called something beyond a complex?

That is! And you probably watched The Godmakers. Was it animated? (It's on YouTube.)
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soundingsea
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:14 pm (UTC)
Um... ew. I mean, the Holy Ghost flying his bird self around her and poof! Virgin is preggers... bad enough. But.. so.. do they not have the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, then?
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:18 pm (UTC)
OH. And the argument the LDS church has against it having been the Holy Ghost is that once you are baptized, you get the "holy ghost" within, which would result in you becoming pregnant.

...WOW.

And yes, she's still a Virgin because God Peen doesn't split the hymen and taint the area. WHAT.
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stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:17 pm (UTC)
LOL the word "startle" always has me flashing back to South Park. :D

LUNCH! I think I'll make a grilled roast beef and provolone sammich. Or some pad thai noodles. FOOOOOD.

I WAS INTERESTED IN SAMMICHES ALWAYS. Describe the components of this miracle of foodstuffs, yea verily!
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evamagick
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:15 pm (UTC)
WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

Now, Mormonism has brought me some weird shit, but this is like pagan belief weird shit! I'M pagan and I don't even buy this crap! Whaaaaaaaat?! Grown up people who know how to dress themselves and go to the bathroom like civilized humans believe this?! HOW?
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:19 pm (UTC)
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. Omg, your comment is making me lol because I KNOW, RIGHT!?
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_tallian_
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:21 pm (UTC)
So ... Mary wasn't a virgin, then? I mean, PIV = not virgin, right?

OH WAIT MIRACLE NEVERMIND.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:24 pm (UTC)
YEAH. I've addressed it more fully in a few other comments, but yeah - God means no hymen busted, or some weird, poorly thought-out scenario.
menomegirl
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:21 pm (UTC)
I've always thought the whole virgin birth thing was just part of a fictional book written by men a long time ago and not much different than a book of fairy tales. Because really. She turned up with child before she was married but hey, it was all okay with everyone because an " angel " came along and told her it was " God " that did it. And people bought that? I wonder how many bridges they sold that day.

On the other hand, the tiny part of me that's still Catholic despite the gross lapse on my part, read this: LDS teaches that God showed up and had physical sex with Mary - like, climbed on her, thrust, orgasmed, magical God-sperm to Mary-egg happenings. and freaked right the fuck out.

They actually teach that?

Dude. That's fucked up.

stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:26 pm (UTC)
It could totally be turned around to be a story mary concocted to save face, right? But the men took over the story and made it what it is now.

AND YEAH - YOUR CATHOLIC RESPONSE IS THE RIGHT ONE, REGARDLESS. Yep, that's taught. But in less "aww, yeah, baby! *toe suck*" language. It's all Victorian and flowery and shit.
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flaming_muse
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:30 pm (UTC)
OMG HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS?

I bet there'd be a heck of a lot more Evangelical Mormon-bashing if these stories were more widely circulated.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:40 pm (UTC)
Guess what a big part of my book is? ;)
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serenemiss
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:35 pm (UTC)
I dunno, this doesn't surprise me like crazy, because Mormonism is whack.

I like the Zeus/Athena shoutout. :)
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:41 pm (UTC)
I have a lot of Christians/former Christians on my flist that I thought would be shocked by this - most people don't know what Mormons REALLY believe.

Hahaha, THANK YOU.
mecurtin
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:46 pm (UTC)
When I agree with a Southern Baptist bigwig, it should be big news: Richard Land says Mormonism is the fourth Abrahamic faith. I think that's pretty accurate: theologically, Mormonism is a good bit further from the rest of Christianity than Islam is from Judaism.

Do Mormons realize that they're not monotheists by the standards of other Christians? Much less by the standards of Jews and Muslims, who don't consider most Christians to be monotheists -- that Trinity business is right out.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:58 pm (UTC)
Oh, it's absolutely not a Christian faith, as the term is understood by the multitudes. And they have NO CLUE.

They believe they're along the line of Protestants, but more pure since they didn't break off from the Catholic Church, but skipped from the time of the Apostles to the time of Joseph Smith. ....no, really.
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gehayi
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:51 pm (UTC)
So, basically, the Mormon God is no different than horny ol' Zeus physically impregnating various virgins and siring gods and demigods.

Gee, and here I thought that the Judeo-Christian God was supposed to be different from pagan ones.

I also recall being taught that Mary had to choose to agree to bear the Savior. I remember a legend I heard (and later read) that said that Mary was NOT the first one that the angel came to. But she was the first to say yes.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:58 pm (UTC)
Yep! But they don't see it that way at all.

There's a thread up top discussing this very thing about Mary choosing, etc.
judetwee
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:53 pm (UTC)
There are so many different interpretations of that event that I don't even know what to say about it. There is an Annunciation piece from the Renaissance period where Mary looks offended by whatever Gabriel is telling her. (Sorry, huge image. But just look at her face!)

On the subject of really odd mythological conception stories, the Popol Vuh (the Mayan creation myth) has one of the weirdest I've ever heard.

Hun-Hunahpu (One Deer is what it means, I think) and his brother were invited to the underworld (Xibalba) and got tricked into playing a ball game that they lost, and were sacrificed. Their heads were hung as trophies in a calabash tree. Later, a daughter of one of the lords of the underworld came by and Hun-Hunahpu spit into her hand. She then became pregnant (!!) with the hero twins, who would go on to defeat the lords of the underworld to avenge their father and uncle.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 06:02 pm (UTC)
I love creation stories on an academic level! And something that always makes me laugh is when I hear of Intellectual Design folks saying how they want creationism taught. Well, who's creation story?
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maryaminx
Sep. 2nd, 2010 05:54 pm (UTC)
I'm sure I've heard it before, but it still makes my jaw drop. Mormonism is so removed even from the cray-cray version of Christianity I grew up in, and even more so from the mainstream.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 06:03 pm (UTC)
IT IS SO CRAY CRAY. And they have no idea how crazy it sounds to outsiders! (Well, they do, because this shit isn't taught to converts for a looooooooong time.)
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ryokomusouka
Sep. 2nd, 2010 06:04 pm (UTC)
Yeah, raised Mormon (outside Utah). Somehow the whole idea of HOW it all really happened was never addressed. We were expected to just accept that she was somehow a virgin and God pulled a Zeus on her. Y'know, MIRACLE and MAGICAL GOLDEN LIGHT and SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE WORTHY ENOUGH and JOSEPH WAS SUCH A GREAT GUY.

Once I hit adult Sunday School, if the subject came up, there was a lot of hand waving and "umm, ahh" and "You don't need to know that, it's 'space doctrine'!" (meaning too deep for mere mortals to concern themselves with).

The farther I get away from the church, the more crazy it looks.

An historical note: back then, betrothal was a half-step from marriage and just as binding. "Putting her away quietly" would have involved getting the priesthood involved as well as civil authority. Rather than subject Mary to that, he decided to claim Jesus as his own, thus ensuring he had a family, even if the family was shamed by the premature nature of the pregnancy.

I read a Harlequin-esque novelization of the whole thing ages ago and loved it. Darned if I can remember what the title of it, though.
ryokomusouka
Sep. 2nd, 2010 06:07 pm (UTC)
"ensuring he had a family"

HE being Jesus, not Joseph.
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fabrisse
Sep. 2nd, 2010 06:40 pm (UTC)
It only really gets bothersome for those who believe in Mary's indomitable physical virginity.

I'm certain there were more than a few young women who got caught out and said "Hey, it was a god! Not my fault!" especially in cultures where the alternative is stoning.
arcana_j
Sep. 2nd, 2010 07:35 pm (UTC)
I disagree. For me, Mary's supposed virginity is neither here nor there.

I think the whole idea that a bunch of old men can justify their pervasive doctrine of busting adolescent hymen because, "God did it too" is freakish and scary.
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furikku
Sep. 2nd, 2010 06:57 pm (UTC)
DDDDD8 NO THAT IS NOT THE WAY GOD'S LOVE IS SUPPOSED TO WORK!
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 07:06 pm (UTC)
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
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harmonyfb
Sep. 2nd, 2010 07:14 pm (UTC)
I dunno...coming from a polytheistic standpoint, it's not the first time a god has come on all hey, baby, how's it going? Wanna see my etchings - hey, presto! Avatar. (or hero, or God. See also: Apollo and Artemis, Dionysus, Heracles...)
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 07:55 pm (UTC)
Of course it's not unheard of in the history of relgions, which is is why I mentioned Athena/Zeus - but from a "we claim to be Christian" standpoint, their version of the Blessed Mary story is pretty shocking.
essene
Sep. 2nd, 2010 07:33 pm (UTC)
smart-smart-smart-smart-smart
Gotta say, it's not something I've thought about in awhile, but yeah. I knew. All their explanations are crazy. For everything.

That said, I tend to believe that Jesus was well...Joseph and Mary's kid. I'm not so much with the "Jesus is a deity" thing anymore.

So egg and sperm meeting? Yeah. Godly sperm and human egg meeting? Not so much.
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 07:53 pm (UTC)
Martin Harris dumb - dum-da-dumdumb!
They really are crazy ass explanations, right? For EVERYTHING. (I mean, we could talk for hours about Kolob.)

I think there really was a person named Jesus (Kita and I were talking about this very thing earlier today) but I don't believe in - if I may continue to borrow from South Park, "Jesus Christ's divinity." (I'ma Jew. A lonely Jew, I'm not happy, 'cause I'm Hebrew, on Chriiiiiist-mas." :D
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mosrael
Sep. 2nd, 2010 08:00 pm (UTC)
LOL well, I'm pretty sure that's how Shiva did it too. Getting all up with the milkmaids, I mean shit, he had a whole pantheon to ejaculate! Must've been a chore.

Actually, what bothers me most about the birth of Jesus is that his mom HAD to be a virgin. A normal, sex-having woman wasn't good enough for the savior of humanity - she had to be unsullied! Which explains why our 'savior' was a perfect, clean, non-bleeding person. /sarcasm Guess all those prophets got a raw deal with their regular births...
stoney321
Sep. 2nd, 2010 08:03 pm (UTC)
Zeus did it, Ra did it, but within Christianity this is an unusual concept.
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altyronsmaker
Sep. 2nd, 2010 08:06 pm (UTC)
I chose 5 b/c it's not so much a "Meh, not so much" as a 'Dude, are you fer reelz? *eyeroll*' mixed with a bit of 'oh the Mormons were sipping the wacky juice sometimes.'

And it was Zeus who did the head splitting? I thought that was Chronos? I'll be honest, I haven't looked at the mythology since I had to teach The Odyssey two years ago. Ugh. I hate mythology. too much to try to remember. *sigh*

speaking of origin myths...my very insular, Christian, bible thumping, never left hometown in their entire lives students have been TRAUMATIZED by the Native American Origin myths we've been reading over the last few days. I love bursting their little closed- minded bubbles. *score*
hopeandmemory
Sep. 2nd, 2010 09:10 pm (UTC)
naw, chronos swallowed all of his children to stop the prophecy that one of his children would grow to be stronger than him. but his wife rhea tricked him into swallowing a stone when zeus was born, so zeus could grow up in hiding, and then he came back and cut out his brothers and sisters when he got strong enough.
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raven_tiger
Sep. 2nd, 2010 08:32 pm (UTC)
Wow. This is pretty crazy. I mean in mythology it happens a lot, but to actually believe that God physically had sex with a young girl just blows my mind a little.
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