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Well... turds.

I hate seeing all of these posts about people leaving LJ. For the record, I'm not leaving. I have a frickin' permanent account, and I'm going to use every penny of it, you know? What I am going to do is double post here and at Greatest Journal (GJ) where I am stoney321. Let me know if you're over there and I don't have you friended.

Also, I'm not going to move to loads of sites, like I see people doing. Guys, I'm getting too old for this shit. [/every buddy cop movie made] I have Semagic and I've heard that you can do double posting, so I'm looking into that. I found the LJ backup tool, ljArchive, incredibly simple to use - plus, it has a search device that rocks. (You can find anything from a random comment with ___ topic, etc. etc.)

As for the banhammer controversy, look. I personally do not find those images hot, a turn on, whatever. But you know what? I find Will Ferrell hot, and people look at me like I'm a freak, so... :D I've written Anna Nicole Smith/Daniel fic - I have no room to talk, I believe. My glass house is lovely, and there will be no rocks thrown. I do feel, however, that 6A has the right to run their business as they see fit. That's just the name of the game. (And considering that MySpace found tens of THOUSANDS of pedophiles on their servers... I can see why 6A is acting as they are, whether we like it or not. And whether there is an actual threat there, which, statistically, there isn't: .02% of the profiles were offenders, isn't something 6A/LJ is concerned with.) They just need to be UPFRONT about their WANTS.

I'm not going to talk about what has merit, etc. I think the REAL issue (and one the 6A/LJ is doing a crap job of saying) is that this is about what a COMPANY wants on their equipment, period. If they're going public (and I bet you diamonds to donuts they are and I am jumping on that IPO like it's 1999 - ahahaha, um, anyone get that? Stock/IPO boom?) they want to cater to the potential stock holders. Like it or hate it, that's the situation (from their standpoint) as I see it.

And you know, if you have something that you think might be questionable? Put it behind a lock. That's such a simple solution, imo (Thank you, Maren for saying it so succinctly.) I've locked my fic that could fall under "questionable" and it will remain that way. If someone isn't 18, they aren't going to be on my flist, period. [ETA] Evidently that may not matter? *head desk*

And those are my thoughts on yaoi the sitch.

[ETA 2]

For the record: I think that LJ/6A is handling this all badly. I've posted about that before, but I wanted to clarify. I feel that warning should be given, that a COMPLETE and CONCISE explanation on all the LJ-run comms to insure everyone sees the new policy shoudl be done.

Also: I've gone to this post to find out how to configure Semagic to post to multiple journals at once. It took me a bit and I found the following helpful:

1. Make sure you have the latest version of Semagic
2. Make sure on the login screen (the first thing that pops up) is your NORMAL username.
3. When you click "File, Server Settings," DO NOT put the addendum (lj or gj or ij whatever) in your username THERE.
4. On the INITIAL LOG IN SCREEN, add stoney321 gj (your username, obv.) and it will go through.
5. When you're ready to post, hit "journal, post to multiple journals" and you should see the normal livejournal login and the new gj log in. Voila!



( 108 comments — Leave a comment )
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Aug. 4th, 2007 03:39 pm (UTC)
I feel pretty much the same way. I can see why some people are getting hot under the collar but it's just not lighting my fire. Have you seen the comment by synecdochic here? It's a great deal more balanced than a lot of the postings I've been seeing.
Aug. 4th, 2007 03:41 pm (UTC)
you do know she works for LJ, right?
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Aug. 4th, 2007 03:40 pm (UTC)
Before you bring up MySpace.... realize their purge, compared to their total user base, meant that MySpace had fewer pedophiles than the general population. Seems it would be safer to send your kids there than to the local grocery store...

Locked fic and pics WERE NOT SAFE. A journal has already been suspended, even though the information was LOCKED. That doesn't work. If you want to be safe, you will have to leave LJ for someplace that likes their users and isn't interested in paying lipservice to their TOS.

I can *NOT* see why 6A is acting like they are -- they reviewed an art piece between OF AGE people, not child pornography at all, and deemed it to NOT BE ART, despite it being created by a professional artist that is good enough to be invited to OTHER COUNTRIES for her work.

I am certain this is about removing controversial information from their servers in advance of an IPO attempt. I will do my best to join every forum where such things are discussed to spread the press of just how 6A/LJ treats customers, and that stockholders should expect similar treatment, and investment would be a poor decision. That's how strongly I feel about their actions.

I also feel this is an outgrowth of fear at 6A in the conservative US government, as they claim to be using the Miller test, but aren't using a community standard to validate art. They are becoming a dictatorship, which is NOT a valid business model if they want public ownership. Nor is it valid for a business that opens its doors to anyone that wants to create a journal.
Aug. 4th, 2007 03:46 pm (UTC)
Oh, sure - that's why I put the "statistically, only .02% of their profiles were actually pedophiles" comment - but for investors, all they'll think about is "29,000?!? My god, Marge! We've got to DO something!" you know?

I just saw your wife's post about how locked pics/fic aren't any safer and added an ETA. GAH. That changes things for me - I'm definitely leaving things here (I'm sure not all of my flist will leave), but moving to other sites just in case. I don't typically post stuff that's questionable (except for my wacky sense of humor, har har) but this little "Crucible" button they're adding to every post? Yeah. It'll work out as well now as it did in 1600s Salem. o_0

This is definitely a knee-jerk reaction on LJ's part. It seems so opposite to what they used to be/represent. I think they're about to have a rude awakening from their clientelle leaving en masse.
Aug. 4th, 2007 03:47 pm (UTC)
OMG I am at GJ too! I am illcoveryou

Boy, we sure do branch away from LJ user names, huh?
Aug. 4th, 2007 03:47 pm (UTC)
Ahahaha. It's just easier, you know? :D
Aug. 4th, 2007 03:53 pm (UTC)
The locking "may not matter" in the sense that flocked posts can still get you suspended, but someone has to report it to LJ Abuse in the first place. Which means someone has to be able to *see* it. (Also, just because the user had a flocked journal--posting to an unlocked *community* means that more people will see it. And some of those people may be asshats who report your fic/art/whatever.)

So while locking may not guarantee safety, it can only help.
Aug. 4th, 2007 03:58 pm (UTC)
I've been informed that locked posts may not matter - and you bring up a GOOD POINT: if it's your journal, and it's flocked... Someone on your flist reported you. Man, talk about treachery. The comms? You don't really have control over, so there goes any "safe haven" for groups. (As we've seen with that kerfuffle over at BadBuffyFic where people joined just to rat out people.)

The ugliness is just breathtaking, right? (I still hold to the opinion that if you think it's questionable, flock. You're right: it can only help.)
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Aug. 4th, 2007 04:16 pm (UTC)
I just put up a post in my journal providing links to backup services and instructions. For Semagic, take a look towards the bottom of the post in "Step 4" -- Snapetoy on GJ posted a set of instructions on how to configure to post to multple journals.

You might be interested in "Step 3" too. There's another tool, LJ-Sec, that has two important functions. It allows you to easily change the security on any LJ (or LJ clone) post. It also allows you to repost any or all of your LJ entries to one of the clone services. I copied my entire journal over to GJ, IJ and JF. Then I started cross posting to all 4 services using Semagic.

You don't get the comments, which is unpleasant, but it is a way to save all posts.

I'm Justhuman everywhere, in case your looking, and I just friended you on GJ.
Aug. 4th, 2007 04:20 pm (UTC)
THANK YOU for those links - that's very helpful. And I'm off to return in kind!
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Aug. 4th, 2007 04:27 pm (UTC)
I'm so very confused...is this the backlash of the LJ strikeout from a few months ago, or is this just a continuation of the problem? Is there going to be a mass exodus to GJ? I never actually know about the politics here until I read from you.

I still think its frightening that they are explicit in what constitutes at child pornography. All those Snape/Harry shippers out there are technically doing something wrong, yet I don't think I would know that had I not seen your post
Aug. 4th, 2007 04:46 pm (UTC)
This is basically a resurfacing of Strikethrough - I don't have all the links because it's exhausting. You can find about it - and all the info - on fandom_wank, which is in my links list. It's the first thing that comes up.

One of the pictures in question involved an 11 year old Harry (first year at Hogwarts) and Snape's... leavings. On Harry's face. Some people dig that, fine. I don't, but I don't see why the artist can't post it off site and link to it. That seems fair to me, but then, my journal wasn't deleted without a by your leave like that artist's was. *shrug*
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Aug. 4th, 2007 04:36 pm (UTC)
I just had a whole long comment on Fod's journal related to the chan thing, which used words like "psychology" a lot. It ain't my cup of tea, either--not by a long shot (I couldn't get past the first two or three chapters in "Lolita" myself, and I got very viscerally uncomfortable at the stuff implied in "A:ts" S2's "Untouched") but I'm basically of that whole "I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" school of thought.

I'm really not cool with what LJ's doing, how they're handling stuff, and the fact that they'll delete, purge and permanently ban users who actually FLOCK their stuff really annoys me. And the fact that people are being turned in by their own flists--it's a batshit crazy time. It is not at all cool.

I'm on GJ and IJ under the same name, if you're interested. Also, fandom_flies is a comm devoted to organizing a server all 34,000+ of us who joined fandom_counts could look at as a new, fan-safe home. (It's really cool so far, actually--they're working on scripts already to automatically copy your entries and comments off of LJ)

Also, I am totally willing to host any images/fic people off my flist might be considered about at my domain, cityofdemons.com. LJ has a thing in their TOS that says they're not responsible for off-LJ stuff people link to.
Aug. 4th, 2007 04:38 pm (UTC)
...er. That's stuff people might be concerned about. Ignore my crazy fingers, they know not what they do.
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Aug. 4th, 2007 04:42 pm (UTC)
As you can probably tell, I've been watching this situation since it first hit the news comment thread; somewhere over at JF I said something about my committment to artistic freedom going down every time the macro with the picture at issue was used. It's not my thing- not the subject matter, and not the style of illustration- and I don't want to see it unwarned. Or, like, at all, ever.

But, I don't want it mislabeled as child porn and the artist put on a sex offendors list, either. There's already too much damage being done- both to people assigned to the list for trivialities but more importantly to society's ability to distinguish between really dangerous people and those who have sublimated their dangerous urges sufficiently not to hurt anyone (by this I am absolutely excluding photographic/video porn). Muddying the waters about the nature and danger of the offense just makes it harder to pay attention to the actual human victims, who get the least attention of all.

There was a bit of by-play earlier this week about the difference between being catty in private and in public, which maybe is relevant here: there are times and places to let our anti-social yayas out, and refusing to recognize that distinction is probably a manifestation of the death wish.

Julia, my manifestation of the death wish, today, has to do with going to a Polish wedding and eating a little of everything.
Aug. 4th, 2007 04:52 pm (UTC)
Is there a possibility that the artist could be put on a sex offender's list for that image? WOW. That seems crazy to me! Now, to be fair, I was of the opinion back in the day that drawings weren't the same as photos. (I mean, come on, right?)

It seems like a bandaid to NOT HELP people who really are victims. I get the strong suspicion that the mindset (once 6A has everything in its place) will be, "mischief managed." And that will be it. And... that's not really stopping/helping people who are abusers or will be.

It's all just such ugliness. GAH.
Aug. 4th, 2007 05:03 pm (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, the problem isn't so much that LJ makes up its own rules - they are completely within their right to do so - but that those rules are so vague, contradictory and seemingly arbitrary. jupiter_star has a pretty good round-up here of what LJ have said and done, and it's... confusing, to say the least. Fiction journals need not fear, but fiction journals may be deleted. Everyone will get an advance warning, but you'll get no advance warning. Fiction and created images are safe, but only if the LJ staff feel that they have "serious artistic merit" (whatever that is). If LJ want to ban descriptions of underage sex in all forms, or slash, or whatever - that's their prerogative, but people must have a sporting chance of knowing beforehand whether a certain fic or image might get them deleted or banned with no chance to defend themselves.
Aug. 4th, 2007 05:35 pm (UTC)
I need to add the caveat that I agree that LJ/6A is handling this poorly. They've back peddled so much on so many various things, cloaked other comments in vague legal issues... (I've posted about my frustration with that before, but I should include it here, too, so as to not cause confusion.)

The idea that I (or anyone) could wake up and find your journal gone with no recourse? That's horrifying to me. Warnings/notice should be given, especially an oppt. to explain/defend oneself.
Aug. 4th, 2007 05:12 pm (UTC)
I'm using my IJ as a fic archive and that's about it. I'll stay on LJ until my flist decides on another site and moves there en masse. I'm not about to jump through 20 semagic hoops to crosspost to 10 different journals.

I think the way LJ is handling this is underhanded and sneaky and overall craptastic. I think LJ sucks in all of this. But I also think people need to get a grip, see the concerns, and address them within the community. Locked fic and artwork is a start, as is buying your own webspace and putting up creative works on your own dollar under your own authority if it truly exists on the line.

The fact of the matter is, people who are not in fandom don't understand the intent or purpose of adult-rated creativity, and are frankly freaked the fuck out by it. On one hand, it's none of their business and isn't *for* them so who cares. On the other hand, it's only smart to realize the potential implications of Betty Sue next door seeing your Year 1 Harry/Snape porn and raising a hoo-ha at her big Southern Baptist Church which is also attended by the local police chief and a journalist for the local paper.

We have a very special community that is creative and inclusive in all the ways that are important. But from what I can see, the biggest response to LJ's concerns and actions has been a big hysterical how dare you rather than a critical look at the issue and an attempt to come up with a better, more reasonable solution on our own terms.

Totally unpopular opinion, I know, but I think fandom needs to put our big girl pants on and think about what we can do other than scatter in the journalling wind. I'm totally in support of the collective us deciding that what's at issue here is LJ's handling of the situation, and moving to a different server. But I think what *has* to come with that is a willingness to look at the issue at hand-- underage pornish work that walks the line of legality (or that appears to do so to a great number of non-fannish people, in any case)-- and figure out some other solution than we can do whatever we want, wherever we want, so there. Otherwise, these same issues will continue to occur.
Aug. 4th, 2007 05:39 pm (UTC)
Dammit, woman, my love for you grows. That people can't see that, perhaps, JUST PERHAPS their chan pictures might be found/used in a way by people you didn't intend is concerning. And I know that we're supposed to have the automatic "anything goes!" mentality here, but I don't. SORRY, PEOPLE.

I don't understand why it's such an affront to move your questionable material off site. I really don't understand. I do, however, think LJ needs to quit acting like assholes and make a blanket statement that is CLEAR and CONCISE and not hide their reasons. And they should give fair warning, imo.
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Aug. 4th, 2007 05:56 pm (UTC)
I am not moving anywhere, I just got back damnit!

It's nice to see that the LJ kerfuffle that was in full swing when I disappeared is back again, it's like I didn't miss a thing.

LJ is obviously handling this very poorly, but they are completely within their rights. The current political atmosphere certainly doesn't help matters as people seem to be unable/unwilling to draw a distinction between fantasy which may involve disturbing elements and actual child pornography in which children are hurt. Personally, I can't even read g-rated Potter fic, never mind chan, but to each his own.
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:01 pm (UTC)
Hahaha, I know, right?

And yes to your last paragraph to all but the Potter dislike, hahaha! :D
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:12 pm (UTC)
I think the REAL issue (and one the 6A/LJ is doing a crap job of saying) is that this is about what a COMPANY wants on their equipment, period

I don't think anybody has a problem with 6A saying "we don't want this or this on our servers". The problem lies in their complete inability to give clear direction on what is and is not allowed, their (apparent) inability to distinguish between borderline content that could be solved with a selective post delete and real goddamn predators that need to be permanently banned (one of whom - at last report - still had an active journal. The woman who complained about him was told not to take 'his jokes' so seriously.), 6A's apparent inability to have a clear and consistent policy, their inability to hire a single person to be responsible for administering and/or explaining said policy, leading to obnoxious and contradictory posting, the deceitful practices which insult their userbase, and their Animal Farm approach to their (not available for review) ever-changing TOS.

I'm probably going to be moving sometime in the near future. I've loved it here, but frankly, I don't want to lose all my posts when they decide they don't like something I've posted (and make no mistake - if they have such a wild overreaction to a single sketch of fictitious men who look like they could be 18, then eventually, they'll get around to other erotic content, too. And once the troll button has been implemented, then what about when some Mormon doesn't like what you posted? Or some fundie whack-job doesn't like me posting Pagan content? What happens when the 'abuse' team gets so overloaded that they just delete without ANY investigation?)

::is disgusted:: I won't be renewing my paid membership.
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:20 pm (UTC)
Actually, I've come across posts/comment threads where people are saying 6A has no right to not want stuff on their servers, so that's why I addressed it.

Their lack of being clear and concise is just compounding LJ's problems. People should be given warnings and the chance to move questionable material offsite instead of possibly losing everything, absolutely.

The troll button is HORRIFYING. I cannot support that, and I think your scenario has a likely possibility. And the fact that an ACTUAL MOLESTER still has an account speaks volumes about LJ's ability to porperly police their site. GOOD HELL.
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:16 pm (UTC)
And I know that we're supposed to have the automatic "anything goes!" mentality here, but I don't. SORRY, PEOPLE.

I agree. I think there has to be some kind of self-imposed litmus test for posting unlocked fannish works. Like, "would I show this to my boss/client/coworker who has said in passing that they like Buffy?" If not, why? Could there be consequences and what are they? If the consequences are that boss/client/coworker look at you weird and gossip behind your back about what a freak you are, then whatever. But if the consequences are that someone might report you to the police or some other agency because they have kids themselves or maybe were abused and they are concerned about the legality of what you're doing, maybe you shouldn't show your boss/client/coworker. And maybe, just maybe, you could extend that logic to the online world and lock creations that push at legal boundaries so that someone has to at least know enough about fandom to find it, and ask to see it.

My fandoms are "safer" in that they don't involve underage activity (well, Buffy could but I typically avoid high school fic *because* of this), but I still take some basic precautions to try to keep real life people from finding my stuff. Why? Because I'm aware that my hobby could be seen as strange and potentially uncomfortably pervy by people who work with me and seek professional services from me and while I think that's too bad, it's reality. My questionable fandom activity is RPF, which I lock precisely because of potential legal issues. I just find it difficult to fully understand and be sympathetic to the camp who refuse to self-regulate in any way at all no matter what.

I also agree that LJ is acting like a nefarious big brother and they need to be clear and concise and transparent. And I also agree that fair warning is important-- people should be given the opportunity to think about their options and make a decision before being banned and losing their journals.
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:17 pm (UTC)
I have no idea how that happened, but I was trying to reply to you up-thread :)
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Aug. 4th, 2007 11:09 pm (UTC)
I absolutely agree that it is within LJ/6A's rights to control content this way, but it is just so unbelievably irritating how unwilling they are to provide a clear definition of what will earn you a ban. I saw a thread on the lj_biz post on the subject, where someone was having a very civilized, polite conversation back and forth with an LJ employee EXCEPT for the fact that the LJE point blank refused to acknowledge that she had even asked about "whose standards of artistic merit/obsenity" they'll be using for the Miller Test. She asked in every responding comment and he would always respond to *every* point in her comment but that one question.

I understand that the law itself is pretty iffy on the line between okay and not okay, but if LJ's worried, they need to set their own VERY SPECIFIC standards, even more conservative than the law if they feel it's necessary, but at least *tell* us.

This was totally the wrong place to rant about this because you acknowledged yourself that the way they're handling it is wrong, but I just needed an outlet and happened to see your post first, sorry! I'm also likely to stick with LJ, especially because I have nothing to worry about personally as everything I post is pretty much PG-13 at worst, but if fandom as a whole moves elsewhere, I'll follow. I don't know how likely that really is, though, in spite of mass dedicated planning.
Aug. 4th, 2007 11:36 pm (UTC)
*hugs you* No, no, you need to vent, I COMPLETELY understand. And so you know, I knew you were doing just that. *g*

I wonder about the moving, too. Another person on my flist (big into HP) commented that the days of the Big Name Fans in HP are done (Cassie Clare, etc.) but if this was happening during the BNF heyday? (the times of Laptop-gate, etc.) Fandom would DEF. move en masse to a new spot. But people have their little niches, so... Everyone isn't going to move, but I'll keep double posting to GJ and LJ and reading both flists to keep as many of you as I can.
Aug. 5th, 2007 01:14 am (UTC)
I'm not going to say anything about 6A or LJ or buttfarts because I'm over that.

However, I would encourage you to get an Insane Journal...just in case. I've heard grumblings of the same sort of stuff that's going on here begining to surface at GJ. IJ has made it fairly clear that unless a DMAC or court order was involved they wouldn't delete or suspend anyone.

That makes me a bit more comfortable with IJ as a fallback.

But I'm going to try to hold on to LJ with all my claws and teeth. But if my friends start an exodus I may do a lemming.
Aug. 5th, 2007 01:26 am (UTC)
I do know that IJ is le cheap, which is a bonus. And since you can post to IJ as well as GJ and LJ (good lord, that's a lot of J's) I'm considering it.

Since I bought a damned permanent account, it does me no good to leave here entirely. They have my money, and leaving just gives them the money without providing service, so... *hands*
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Are You Actually

Reading this? I'm just curious. Because that's really detail-oriented of you. Feel free to stop reading. But you can see that there's more here, so are you going to keep reading? Really? That's pretty dedicated. I'm impressed. No, really. I'm not being sarcastic, why do you get like that? See, this is the problem I have with your mother - yes. YES. I'm going there. It's time we put all of our cards on the table.

I love you, why are you doing this? After all we've been through? You don't have to be like this. You know, still reading. You could be baking a pie. And then sharing it with me.

Time Wot It Is

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